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Modern Warfare 2 - No Dedicated Servers. Are other developers going to follow suit?
November 11th 2009, 17:00 MSK by teenageriot Could this be the start of a new trend in order to try to squeeze more money out of the PC community? Although this recent announcement has sent shockwaves through the PC gaming community, I think the overall response has been rather mild. Currently the petition in favor of the Dedicated Servers holds little over 140,000 signatures, I'd imagine with changes as chocking as these we would stand together to prevent this from happening in the future. Again, with the new IWnet matchmaking system they are getting rid of the following: no more choosing what level you want to play no more connecting to a low ping games by choice no more clan matches no more mods no more custom maps no more filtering matches no more joining on to a game with all your mates no more high capacity matches (eg. 30/40/50 people in a match) no more benifits of playing online over the console version link to the petition link to article explaining the new matchmaking system What do you think? |
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Topic: Modern Warfare 2 - No Dedicated Servers. Are other developers going to follow suit?
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I liked MW1 a little better at first, as the opening missions in MW2 are a little bleh. Especially South America. But once you're past that, it's fucking ace. |
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Tried both MP and Spec Ops today. Loved both. Matt and I played some split screen Spec Ops (Jamie, if you ever want to do co-op Spec Ops we should give it a try sometime) and that was really fun. But I'm HOOKED on MP. Didn't think I'd like it at all but now I'm addicted. I've been playing it all day with breaks to eat, do laundry, and feed the alpacas. I'm around level 12 or so now, I think. |
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Are you playing on the PC or the 360, Caryn? Also, do you go back and play MW1, it's good stuff. The best single player experience I've had in an FPS. (I haven't played MW2 yet) "Fucking Radio Shack. It's a wonder they even know how to use a bathroom and don't just walk around all day with shit in their pants." - smds
"the concept that a happy worker is a productive worker is hardly an entry from Matt's Big Book Of Things The Fairies Said." - Dum |
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I'm playing on the 360. |
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#44 by Caryn I just finished the single player of MW2 and ohmygodohmygod. I never played Modern Warfare 1 and only really decided to play this one because I figured it was popular and as a game dev I should really be able to reference it. Oh my GOD, that was hands-down one of the best game experiences I've EVER had. I'm so glad I decided to play it. You really need to play the first one, it's one of my favorite shooters ever. |
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Yeah, MW1 was great. It just had that combat feeling done very well. "IT consultant of perfect lovemaking art."
- randomly generated subject header of a spam e-mail |
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MW1 was pretty great. I found MW2 to be a little patchy, but I was playing on Veteran, so I kept getting my ass handed to me. I think I played through MW1 on normal and then possibly cranked the difficulty up later on. I did played on Vet because I am an achievement whore. I couldn't imagine playing it on hardened. The story in MW2 was blah at best, MW1 actually had some kind of plausible basis in reality. However, if you're playing Call of Duty for an engaging story, you're a fucking moron. Cool setpieces and big explosions and frantic action FTMFW. Highlights of the game: -the Stealth level. Really neat twist on an otherwise horrible FPS idea. They did a really great job with running around a military base unseen. -Repelling off the cliff. This is near the end of the game, so I wont say too much other than holy fuck that was brutal. -The BBEG fight. Again, a neat take on what is otherwise a horrible gameplay crutch. -The snow mobile section. This is the escape after the stealth level goes to shit. Racing down a mountain on a snow mobile with Russian soldiers chasing you on vehicles. Motherfucking James Bond shit right there. -Walking out of the DC bunker for the first time. Sure, this bit is in the trailers, but the sound effects, music, and visuals were really well done and made quite the impact. |
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NOLF did snowmobile chases first. |
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And Wolfenstein did fpses first. What's your point? |
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#58 by G-Man NOLF did snowmobile chases first. But the controls sucked. "IT consultant of perfect lovemaking art."
- randomly generated subject header of a spam e-mail |
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Selling pirated copies is for idiots. Heh. Talking on twitter with a hologram maker? FFS. Parhelic Triangle is coming.
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Twitter as a piracy platform, hmm... A round pizza with radius 'z' and thickness 'a' has the volume pi*z*z*a. Coincidence? I think not.
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After waiting almost a full week with Modern Warfare 2 at the top of my rental queue at Gamefly, with my other game already safely in their hands and no discernible rush to send me another, I finally got...Assassin's Creed 2. Which is fine, it just wasted a week of my rental time. |
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ATTENTION CRAPPERS: ---------------------- Recently I came across an awesome thread on a forum, about graffiti in games -specifically pc games. GRAFFITI IN GAMES EXHIBITION @ MARIO'S WORLD. (WORLD EXCLUSIVE!!) _____ (C)2009 Mario's World. All Rights Reserved. § Pimp of Mario's World. Hater of society. §
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I've been paying attention to a lot of the gaming writers talk about MW2 on various podcasts, and Christ, I've been amazed at how many of them can't understand the plot of the game. Maybe Infinity Ward is at fault for not being clear enough, but it's not exactly rocket science. \"Making love to a woman is like working on an assembly line. No matter how good you are at it, you\'ll eventually be replaced by a foreigner or a machine.\"
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Well, the story is pretty ridiculously convoluted and really disjointed. |
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Yeah, but asking questions like "What's the point of No Russian" isn't MW2's fault, I reckon. Especially not when it's some guy on the Sarcastic Gamer podcast saying that since you were supposed to be taking Makarov down, what was the point of that entire level... among other examples. I HATE GAMES WRITING/PEOPLE. \"Making love to a woman is like working on an assembly line. No matter how good you are at it, you\'ll eventually be replaced by a foreigner or a machine.\"
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The lobby system is killing me. I spend more time being thrown around between games than I do playing. "Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen."
- Heinrich Heine |
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That's exactly what I don't like about "intelligent" matchmaking systems. They might end up being stupid in some situations and frustrate players, and yes, even when browsers are ugly and annoying when you "just want to play" a good game with even opponents, they still give you the choice. I don't understand why they don't add them as option B (with possible penalties like no XP gained to avoid abuse, but still). Parhelic Triangle is coming.
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I don't understand why they don't add them as option B (with possible penalties like no XP gained to avoid abuse, but still). Because it's likely a completely different net code that you can't just "add in"? That's like saying that I can just add in a different engine in my car. I mean, really, how is that a problem? I just strap it on, right? Then I'd have two working engines to drive my car with!! I love it when people complain about something lacking in a game and they say, "they can just add it in!" No, you really can't just add in 90% of what you're complaining about. |
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Also, these problems don't seem to exist on the 360. Only twice so far has my game migrated to a new host and it only took seconds. |
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Well of course you would say that. How many games have you failed to implement co-op in now? |
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The host migration I have no issue with. It's the mess of a lobby system they have. People leave cause the skip-vote doesn't pass, so now we have to wait for a merge, and the timer resets everytime, and the connection to the host is lost and instead of finding a new one it dumps me back to the title screen and fuck me but I'm tired of this shit. If I want to play a particular map, let me filter on it. What's the big deal? "Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen."
- Heinrich Heine |
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Caryn, I've heard MW2 on the PC has been hacked to include a server browser, so I wouldn't go as far as saying it's a completely unfeasible pie-in-the-sky idea to have both systems working in the game at once. But to your point everything in software development is way more difficult than we generally think they are, and I think the argument can be made that IW benefits from not having two systems because it simplifies the number of interface screens and streamlines the experience. Not supporting the browser might've meant twice as much time for their UI guys to iterate on whats actually in the game. Even if the system still sucks it at least sucks less than it would have if they also had to support a whole different kind of server access. I don't just mean they get to skip making graphics for a couple interface screens, it's the whole interplay of design-test-iterateing that's required and can take months and months to get just right. So ultimately I support the idea of skipping server browsing, even on the PC. But I think it sounds ridiculous if their alternative system has the flaws mgns points out. Bungie iterated on their party system for three titles and got it good, maybe IW underestimated the intricacies of getting a good multiplayer system right... Maybe they can patch in better support over time, though if the problems mgns is referring to is limited to the PC they might not care all that much*. * I.e. it might not make financial sense to rework anything too much if the problems are limited to the crazy world of PC gaming, their teams are likely already looking ahead to MW3 and its 2011/12 release |
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#70 by Caryn Because it's likely a completely different net code that you can't just "add in"? Who the fuck is talking about a "completely different net code"? The game already has a system that can find open games, so how hard can it be to just find 3-5 open games and list them? Parhelic Triangle is coming.
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I mean, it's not like I want them to support DirectX 7 codepath, because it's just different graphics. Parhelic Triangle is coming.
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I think the problem isn't really about tech at all when it comes down to it. Though it must have helped their UI team that they didn't have to design, test and iterate a whole other way of accessing servers it's not what this is about. At the end of the day this is about politics. Why should they add the browser? Just to satisfy the hardcore PC players? How would that benefit MW2 and IW? What IW wants is to hit as broad an audience as possible, and they have a proven way of doing that by mimicking whatever makes the 360 work. The party system is the de facto standard on the 360 platform, why not make it the same on the PC version and in one big swoop make a bid for a larger chunk of PC players as well as lessen their own workload? Put like that they'd have to be idiots not to cut the browser... The PC version is not the leader in this, it has to fall in line to the console versions and be happy about getting a version at all. |
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Excel question: I have a column where we a monthly amount. Next to it I have a column that computes the annual amount, but in order to differentiate between zero and empty it says IF(G4="","",G4*12). That part works fine. However, I have another compute to total up the number of annual amounts over 1000, and that doesn't work at all. The compute G4>=1000 returns false for the normal empty cell, and true for the computed empty one. WTF? How do I account for that? "I hope you one day decide to smarten the fuck up so I can stand to look at your posts." - gaggle
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Maybe the computed empty cell actually contains some kind of data that's messing things up? Have you tried AND(G4>=1000,G4!="")? I don't know what the proper excel syntax for not equal is, and am too lazy to look. |
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Why would you ever have to differentiate between zero and a blank entry in computing an amount? For that matter, why would you ever want to keep blank entries for amounts anyway? Anyway, Squeaky is correct. This is a design feature of the IF function. The cell looks blank but it actually contains a formula and so will not result false. It actually returns true because when you ask Excel to evaluate text numerically it first converts the text to a number. There are about a dozen ways to get the result you want, many of which involve VBA however. The easier fix is to just validate your data properly or change your output for the annual amounts by using substitute as part of a nested if or whatever. Also your method of testing for blank cells may not be robust enough since it won't catch multiple spaces or other oddball entries which look blank but aren't (like non-displaying formulas etc.) |
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So ultimately I support the idea of skipping server browsing, even on the PC. But I think it sounds ridiculous if their alternative system has the flaws mgns points out. Bungie iterated on their party system for three titles and got it good, maybe IW underestimated the intricacies of getting a good multiplayer system right... Maybe they can patch in better support over time, though if the problems mgns is referring to is limited to the PC they might not care all that much*. Is this seriously such a problem that the market for this game is suffering? Who is being affected by this? The number of console players is vastly higher than the number of PC players for this game and this system is working fine for a majority of players. It doesn't sound ridiculous at all even if it has these flaws that mgns is experiencing -- a certain portion of PC players are going to be negatively affected by any number of anomalies relating to networking or drivers or DirectX or some voodoo shit put in their PC. It's not ridiculous at all to develop a networking system that works pretty well for a majority of the people using it when that system allows the developers to streamline the UI and networking development such that it's very polished into a good user experience for a large majority of people on more than one development platform, especially when that platform's primary market is NOT the PC. Next they'll be amazed and appalled that they don't support trackballs as a controller. |
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Who the fuck is talking about a "completely different net code"? The game already has a system that can find open games, so how hard can it be to just find 3-5 open games and list them? I don't know how hard it is because I'm not a network programmer and/or UI developer and Infinity Ward and neither are you. But I can take a reasonable and logical guess based on the many games I've worked on where I've been able to observe and be involved in the decisions that go into setting up the networking system for console games, PC games that are client/server, and PC games that are peer-to-peer, having worked on all types. Maybe you should ring up the programmers and UI devs at Infinity Ward and tell them how to do their job. I mean, they can just do it because you imply it can't be that hard, right. I'm sure they'll totally understand and get right on it. |
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And I'm sure they'll be so glad that someone on the Internet finally set them straight. I mean, I'm pretty sure they didn't think at all about whether or not to use dedicated servers, right? They just probably jumped up and said, "hey, I know, let's create a brand new matchmaking system for our game even though lots of people have used dedicated servers for our games before, just because WE CAN." |
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I question your sincerity in the above post. |
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I'm sure gaggle is somewhat right that part of the decision likely had to do with UI development resources and testing. A server browser is possibly the most complex and resource-intensive piece of a game's UI (next to that would be game lobbies where matchmaking, player connection listing, etc. occurs); IW made exactly the right call in not trying to support it and ending up supporting it badly due to having to stretch resources and time when they had a system that had to work across multiple platforms, and server browsers would only be necessary in their smallest market. However, I'm sure a lot more than just UI went behind this decision, probably a lot of stuff that no one here has any idea about, including myself. Mostly I just like to snort in laughter when people suggest that things are easy to do in games when they have no idea what actually has to happen to accomplish that. Hell, there's a lot of people who actually work on games who make those calls on projects and have no idea about the amount of work they're actually requesting. I can't tell you how many times over my career I've had to tell a producer when he's said, "can you just make this simple change?" And what he's asking for is actually an enormous amount of work and time we can't afford, and he just blinks at me in confusion. |
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But terabytes of data are so hard to parse! REMEMbER DESCENT THE HIGHEST FORM of PATRIOTiC
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Every time bago posts something I have this image of a 102-year-old sleeping man whose brain has been addled by years of drink suddenly waking up in the corner of a room full of people who forgot he was there, spouting off whatever was in his brain at the time, and then slumping back into the chair asleep again. Everyone turns, blinks, and then goes back to their conversation. |
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#83 by Caryn I mean, I'm pretty sure they didn't think at all about whether or not to use dedicated servers, right? #85 by Caryn Hell, there's a lot of people who actually work on games who make those calls on projects and have no idea about the amount of work they're actually requesting. Let me skip the sarcasm and get to the point. I didn't buy and I didn't play MW2, so I don't really care much. I know "developers owe you nothing" and I know PC is a very small market in this case. And I know they can't please everyone. Starting my sentence with "I don't understand why they..." sounded almost as arrogant as your posts, I actually do understand why they might skip on some features, and I've heard that "A 25% increase in problem complexity results in 100% increase of solution complexity", and while I have no idea what their code looks like, I know what their code MIGHT look like. And I know that they HAVE a system for finding open games, and I assume the system should be able to look for the next game, and... nevermind. No software is perfect, and I don't care. |
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That was a very good post. |
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I think my favorite thing to come out of the boycott was the screenshot Bob put out there a while back that showed a list of gamertags that had signed up for the boycott. 9 out of 10 of them were playing MW2 on launch day. |
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I should have joined a boycott - I had/have no intention of buying MW2. "Don't try to take cover by the legs of my walker. It will not go well for you." - Shadarr
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Jibble (#90): I think my favorite thing to come out of the boycott was the screenshot Bob put out there a while back that showed a list of gamertags that had signed up for the boycott. 9 out of 10 of them were playing MW2 on launch day. Link? Because that's pretty funny shit. As for the argument above...coding is hard!!! "Fucking Radio Shack. It's a wonder they even know how to use a bathroom and don't just walk around all day with shit in their pants." - smds
"the concept that a happy worker is a productive worker is hardly an entry from Matt's Big Book Of Things The Fairies Said." - Dum |
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Lying motherfuckers. |
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Either fibbers or griefers, two rare species on the internet. <Hugin_len> Basically, cheesy doesn't have awful taste in music, he's simply very white.
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#93 by Jibble Boy, that's some good old hardcore boycott you guys have there. Yep. Keep on boycotting, guys. Parhelic Triangle is coming.
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And I know that they HAVE a system for finding open games, and I assume the system should be able to look for the next game, and... nevermind. You implied the whole thing was easy to add as an option B. And my point was, no, it isn't. No matter how easy you might think it is, it isn't. And clearly you understood it wasn't easy so I don't really understand why you suggested it was in the first place. Obviously if it were that easy IW would have added them. And just a little bit of thought even by someone who hasn't worked on games should deduce that doing this: The game already has a system that can find open games, so how hard can it be to just find 3-5 open games and list them? -- which, by the way, is the arrogant tone I responded to in kind -- would probably make you realize that this doesn't at all play nice with a matchmaking system for a game that has a skill ladder like MW2's. Sure, now with a hacked-in server browser I'm sure you can join any open game you can find...except that the matchmaking system is checking those open games to be sure that your skill level is compatible with the server's population so that new users don't get fucked by people of a much higher skill level. And again, there are various other reasons having to do with UI and resources and such that factored in. And since you now say that you knew all that, I guess I don't understand why you even made the post you did in the first place. |
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Caryn (#96): And since you now say that you knew all that, I guess I don't understand why you even made the post you did in the first place. Because he was upset by a seemingly arbitrary design decision? It's not like it was the first instant-rather-than-considered reaction post ever. "Don't try to take cover by the legs of my walker. It will not go well for you." - Shadarr
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OK, you're right. At least I got the discussion rolling. I mean, crawling. But anyway, they're robbing the players from their choices. I mean, which is better, to be unable to play at all, or to play against more skilled opponents? Parhelic Triangle is coming.
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so how hard can it be Jezza sees your point and raises a space shuttle. A round pizza with radius 'z' and thickness 'a' has the volume pi*z*z*a. Coincidence? I think not.
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Caryn: Obviously if it were that easy IW would have added them. Whether a game browser would've been hard to add seems slightly beside the point. Other IW games have had a classic game browser and dedicated servers instead of a matchmaking system so I think we can assume they know how to add those. IW deliberatly chose to not have dedicated servers either as primary or secondary option. The more interesting question is why they decided on this. There must've been some other reason than being hard to program into the game. Had they considered the community forming through dedicated servers important enough, they probably would've invested the time. She's probably had sex with like 4 different guys by now and has no idea who he is anymore, his face lost in a memory sea of dicks.
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Topic: Modern Warfare 2 - No Dedicated Servers. Are other developers going to follow suit?
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